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Forums : General : What if male superheroes posed like female ones?

64 posts, 13 voices

 

TJIC
Administator
720 posts

This

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/08/05/what-if-…

is hilarious.

 

Scott M Davis
600 posts

oh yea… just what i need in the morn.. mmmm

 

Allen
58 posts

That is both hilarious and disturbing at the same time.

 

TJIC
Administator
720 posts

Well, on the bright side, no one is forcing you to look at pictures of the HeavyInk staff dressed as female superheroes. ;-)

 

Scott M Davis
600 posts

But i would like to see those.. Can we get Dan in a Vampi outfit?

 

Allen
58 posts

Well that is a thought I didn’t need to think of. HAHAHA

 

Zach
993 posts

Lol. This is why a big reason why I don’t care for most big-two super heroines.

 

Anzuelo
977 posts

Is that link NSFW? I will play it safe and wait till I get home.

 

Dan [Emeritus]
Administator
5539 posts

Superhero readers, I think that maybe the fantastic Kate Beaton is making fun of you: Strong Female Characters. (And it’s awesome! the final image on the page nails the typical t and a pose you too-frequently see)

 

Joe
Administator
3025 posts

Ha ha ha yeah, every time I see any posts dealing with sexism in comics I think of “Strong Female Characters.” Kate Beaton nailed it. “That was good sex we had. But we’re done.” *CRASH

 

Awesome!
3708 posts

male superheroes do pose, just in a more body builder than stripper fashion.

 

Joe
Administator
3025 posts

That’s the point though. Which is empowering wish-fulfillment and which makes the character look like an object to be ogled at?

 

Awesome!
3708 posts

I don’t understand how buff dudes (our society’s general definition of sexy) is any different than sexy females. Everyone in a comic is hyper-sexualized.

Edit: except for the Green Lantern Guardians, of course. There’s a reason why they’re all blue.

 

Joe
Administator
3025 posts

Because the men aren’t drawn in poses that leave them vulnerable or to be ogled at. Have you seen the David Finch cover that Travis’s post references? The men in it look like they’re ready for battle. They’re strong powerful stances. Them being sexy (if anybody finds them sexy) is secondary. But Wonder Woman’s pose isn’t designed to look strong. She doesn’t look like she’s ready to fight, she looks like she’s trying to get you into bed. Why the relaxed pose? Why the lasso strung through the legs? Why the come hither look on her face? No one is objecting to sexy, but the men are being drawn AS men of action who happen to be attractive, while the women are being drawn as eye candy first by most artists. People like Frank Cho and Amanda Conner do great in making strong women who happen to be sexy but they’re in the minority. People like David Finch draw little waifs that we’re supposed to take for granted are strong because the story says they are.

 

Awesome!
3708 posts

I’m not defending Finch’s art in that cover, I also don’t know why WW is a foot shorter than everyone else. It just seems like a double standard to me when “idealized” portrayals of the female body garner such attention and people laugh off “idealized” men because it’s a power fantasy rather than a sexual fantasy or whatever. They both send the wrong message.

Edit: Also obviously a lot of it is perception. I said body builder vs. stripper and you jumped to wish-fulfillment vs. object to be ogled when in reality body builders often wear the same thing on stage as strippers. For some reason though people see body builders as legitimate professionals and something to aspire to while strippers are just objects. I don’t wish I was a body builder any more than I wish I was a stripper personally.

 

Joe
Administator
3025 posts

This isn’t about Finch’s horrible rendering. This is about how the difference between how it represents the females and the males. This is a common theme that happens over and over and over again by a large portion of artists in superhero comics. And the ‘idealized’ for the women gets criticized and not the men because as I said before, the men have more going for them than just being good looking. They look strong. They look like can stand up for themselves. It’s a physique that’s attainable by going to the gym and eating healthily. The ideal physique in order to be able to stand up for the weak against the strong. I’m not sure how that sends the wrong message. (Power fantasies are only the wrong message if you’re inclined to abuse that power, which the superhero genre isn’t about.)
But often times the women don’t look like that. Their physique looks like it can only be attained through bolemia and plastic surgery. These don’t look like women that can be taking on Dr Doom or Luthor or heck, even bank robbers. Their physiques shown don’t look to be able to stand up for or against anybody. These aren’t the physiques of athletes, they’re the physiques of supermodels mixed with porn stars. They’re drawn the way they are to titillate not empower. The worst of the worst offenders like Finch, Land, and Horn don’t just exist in some pervy vacuum.

To your edit: But it’s not about BEING a body builder, it’s about the ability and strength that comes with what it represents. They have physiques that look look like they are able to accomplish some impressive feats of strength. What do the hyper-sexualized female bodies of the majority of superhero artists look like they can accomplish? I don’t know, they’re too body breaking their back to show their tits and ass at the same time.

 

Zach
993 posts

I want a comic where everyone looks shlubby and nobody life is fun and everyone is too tired and busy to fight crime on their weekends.

 

Awesome!
3708 posts

Why do you feel like a super hero has to be all rippling muscles in order to stand up for the weak? These are universes limited only by imagination. Why does Billy Batson (or the kid in Millar’s Superior) need to turn into muscle-mountain to access his powers? Why can’t the kid just be himself and save the world? It sends the message that to do something good or powerful you need to bulk up in the gym which is total crap. Your argument leads me to believe you want all the female heroes in comics to sport rippling muscles too. Even if WW isn’t drawn sexy she doesn’t have the physique of Superman. Why can’t we have some (more) heroes who don’t fit that mold at all?

 

Joe
Administator
3025 posts

Why did Billy Batson have to get beefed up? Because Captain Marvel WAS wish-fulfillment in every way. It was created as an adolescent fantasy. He was a little kid that could grow up instantly and have all the power in the world, but still as an orphaned kid he was basically without responsibilities and had to answer to no one. I haven’t read Superior, so I can’t comment on that.

And I’m not saying everyone has to be beefed up at all, thanks for putting words in my mouth, but I am saying that there’s a huge difference between giving the men a powerful build and making all the women look like sluts.

 

Awesome!
3708 posts

I didn’t put any words in your mouth. I said your argument leads me to believe, a.k.a. my interpretation.

What does a male slut look like? Green Lantern actually is kind of a slut in the comics and he is often drawn leaving little to the imagination. I guess the millimeter thick spandex changes things though.

 

Dan [Emeritus]
Administator
5539 posts

Back in – what, the 70s? – there was an episode of Buck Rogers where one of the bad guys was a scrawny old man, who went around kicking the crap out of everyone. He was from a planet with higher than normal gravity, and was a librarian there, but on Earth could do dastardly criminal deeds.

Anyway, I think there’s some evolutionary biology driving the idealization visualization here: an “ideal” guy, in the contexts provided by superhero comics, is a Victorian strongman who can kick ass because he’s a strongman, or, alternatively, a less beefy guy who’s a skilled fighter, because he’s studied martial arts or something. They’re ideal in superhero contexts because the contexts are all about fighting. Some are dressed ridiculously, some aren’t, but none of them are wearing only banana hammocks and bow-ties. One would expect (or hope, if one was an ardent feminist, militant or otherwise), that the women in these contexts would be similarly idealized for fighting, since that’s what they do in these stories, but instead, their idealization is different: it’s for the catching a strong man to provide for their offspring role you’d expect from an evolutionary biology perspective (or, maybe more accurately, depending on outfit, cheating on their strong man and tricking him into raising some other guy’s offspring). So, if you want to present these two idealized views of men & women, that’s fine with me, but to claim they’re equally suitable to the story environments they typically populate seems a little off the mark to me.

edit: by “you” I mean “one”, I’m not directing this at anyone in this discussion.

 

Dan [Emeritus]
Administator
5539 posts

@awesome – if the guys are drawn like bodybuilders in spandex (which is ridiculous, I take your point), why not the women, too? It’s less attractive, but more appropriate. Which says to me the point is the attractiveness, not the appropriateness, and what makes someone attractive depends on their gender and our evolved biases.

 

Awesome!
3708 posts

if the guys are drawn like bodybuilders in spandex (which is ridiculous, I take your point), why not the women, too? It’s less attractive, but more appropriate. Which says to me the point is the attractiveness, not the appropriateness, and what makes someone attractive depends on their gender and our evolved biases.

I agree with this. I’m not saying the way women are drawn is appropriate. I’m saying the way men are drawn isn’t really that much more so, regardless of spandex. I don’t think the whole point should be attractiveness though. I don’t buy a comic because it has a sexy WW on the cover just like I don’t buy a comic because it has a sexy Batman on the cover.

 

Dan [Emeritus]
Administator
5539 posts

I’m not saying the way women are drawn is appropriate. I’m saying the way men are drawn isn’t really that much more so, regardless of spandex.

Yeah, I agree.

I don’t think the whole point should be attractiveness though. I don’t buy a comic because it has a sexy WW on the cover just like I don’t buy a comic because it has a sexy Batman on the cover.

Well, that’s you (and me, and possibly a whole bunch of other people), but I’m not sure it’s everyone. I imagine the editors and publishers are doing this for a calculated reason, not just to indulge their own perversities. Which is to say that both gender portrays have something in them that men, on some low evolutionary biology level, want to see. Strong guys to identify with, and attractive women to… covet? Not sure. Something like that, though.

 

Ryan
646 posts

Not to veer off topic but I always wanted to read a comic with normal looking people.

It seems that even when artists tone down the muscles everyone still manages to have an 8 pack set of abs and very defined (but smaller) muscles.
why not just draw normal people every once in a while? Is that just too easy to draw or something?

And I think the contention with poses could be removed entirely if the covers had the characters in action (where as they are depicted in a way they would really act).

Plus if artists really wanted the work to be taken seriously they might consider that these poses are very similar to B Movie / sploitation films (which aren’t really anything to be heralded as something of immense importance (its no citizen kane)).

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